I ve just read the post about sasch demoted... I must say that i always wonder about those situations...

As a guildie, i don t ear anything happening, i m there nearly everyday, but i don t see anything coming. In my experience, I played quite often with Sasch, we had fun, he helped me a lot, he trashtalked a bit but only in wispers and i m at least as trashtalking as he does in those situations so no more then fun between ourselves.

Then comes a sentence from no where : demoted. In explanation lots of things among wich some appear to be true others not.

This is the second time it happens. We can all remember the case of the guy that had a name meaning an insult in dutch (but that was his nickname since ages). At the end everyone felt sorry but too late, he left. Pity he was a nice clown.

I m very aware that it s hard for councilors to take decisions, and that some are to be taken in order to preserve clown spirit. But imho the very least that should be done is to verify VERY carefully the truth of what is said before taking any action. And maybe, to post the problem to everyone BEFORE any sentence is taken.

When you guys don t do that, the result for CLOWNS that are not in the council is that they see sentences poping up in the middle of nowhere and asking themselve what goes wrong in CLOWN and who s next to be demoted or kicked... It puts a VERY bad feeling in the guild.

I don t know if Sasch deserves it or not (and that s precisely a problem). But one thing you ve told him is that he doesn t learn when things are said... Well i could say that the council learns slowly. I wouldn t say do not learn, since you havn t simply kicked him out like the last time, but yet, much of the same mistakes have been done :

- A sentence that pops up and surprises those who are not in council
- Some points that lead to the judgment and that where unverified.

I really hope things are going to be sorted out without that it cost us Sascharim.

If he did hurt Morri (and i ve no idea why, since nothing was said about that), ok that s wrong. But i think they are both adults, they can sort it out togheter too or? It doesn t seem a reason to take guild measures? And if there are other griefs that needs to be treated, can t we at least know about it before s*** happens?

thank you Farwan.

I see that Sasch is still the Reckless CLOWN on this forum.
Why?
If he demoted, he cant be CLOWN anymore.

Just kidding.
If a CLOWN (i include all students/babies/ex-clown/future-clown...) cant disagree with something without having payback like "demoted" i call that dictatorship.
Anyway, you should at least explain things.
2 CLOWNs left because of a stupid disagreement and its not Sasch fault, he just put the finger on a problem that lot of people seemed to keep for themselves.
I hope there will not be more or maybe i misunderstood the ages on the post who made this guild a 30ish+ average.

!!!!

Oooooh, Farwan did a new post in place of posting on original post!!!!

Spank him!!!!!

Even if I agree with him, he should be spanked!!!! With a herring!

Hmm... tbh, I think this is childish, and trust me, I know what im talking about We are all grown ups ( Not me :D) and we can't handle a little fight?? All guilds have some problems, this will be.... our 1st?? I think we all should talk and try to fix this. It's not Sasch's fault...

A personal reflection:

Sad. Sad indeed. Very, very, very sad.

Sach has alot of spirit. Sach spirit. He voice his opinions, as should we all at times.

Unfortunatly he acts too fast. Without thought. In the process he hurt and/or upset people. This is not the first time.

Im sure the council didnt act too fast on this one. Im sure they feel it has come to a point where enough is enough. We can only respect the councils decision.

Sach, learn from it and return a greater lunie.

He is A type in the Extended Disc analysis.

Sadly I have to say I have had some problems with Sach before...

1) He healed as a druid! What crap is that?!

2) He thinks a rogue can do more dmg than cat! WTF?

3) He thinks his pet can tank better than TEH bear?!one!11!eleven!!! no wai!

Enough to kick anyone!

Lord_Finnish wrote:

He is A type in the Extended Disc analysis. Sadly I have to say I have had some problems with Sach before... 1) He healed as a druid! What crap is that?! 2) He thinks a rogue can do more dmg than cat! WTF? 3) He thinks his pet can tank better than TEH bear?!one!11!eleven!!! no wai! Enough to kick anyone!

Ok ok, well i didn t knew that... Well ofc then... Changes everything... Kick him i say! Just kick him!

Well, I have said my opinions to the council, but I would really like to show my support here for Sasch as well and I think you nail it there Farwan.

Sasch shows very actively, probably too actively, concerns for clown, which for some reasons some doesn't like, and gets demoted for the way he is doing it. Sure, he could have written and done things differently if it ended up personal in some way, but as Dwarfi here puts it; we are mostly grownups here and in my opinion this should definitely have been handled another way.

Sasch is in my opinion a great asset to clown, and is, unless he feels something goes terribly wrong with clown,
A) A very skilled player
B) Very helpful
C) A noob
D) Able to lead raids
E) A joy on TS
F) Very clown in heart.

I really don't see how even 10 acts of frustration caused by concerns for clown can lead to any sort of, well call it whatever you want, punishment guildwise. After talking with many about this I can't believe anything has been written by him to deliberately hurt people, but I believe that things have been said and done to make us who have chosen to try another guild to change our mind and focus 100% on clown. Nothing wrong in that imo.

On the other hand something caused Morri to leave because of you, Sasch, and I truly hope you will write her a pm and explain and excuse your act, because we definitely need Morri here as well.

Well, sort it out, both council and Sasch, and lets get on with the fun.

Sasch was clowned because of his acts then, has he changed that much after he got clowned?

Peace out.

I'll try to explain this a bit:

Sasch wasn't demoted for upsetting Morri, or for posting his concerns. That's a ridiculous thing to say.

He was demoted for deliberately provoking the CLOWN/Exalted issue (something he admitted to doing on purpose) both in the in-game chat and on the forums.
He also was very abusive in his manner to many people both in private whispers and in public guild chat.
If this was the first time he would have been warned, but it wasn't. It was the latest in several occurances and he had been warned by council members at least twice. He did not heed those warnings, and even now claims they weren't warnings.

There are two groups of people where Sasch is concerned - the group that has never had a problem with him, and thinks he's great. And the group that have seen this 'nasty' side of him. Both groups like him a lot as far as I can see, but the second group can understand what's happened here.
Up until this event I had never seen his nasty side, and I can completely understand Wood and Farwan's posts. Myself and Morri have both defended him a lot in the past - beacuse, like most of you, we just couldn't comprehend what people were saying.

90% of the time Sasch is a wonderful person, a great CLOWN and a very fun person to hunt with.
The problem is that when he gets in this 'nasty'-mode he can get very personal and vindictive. He just doesn't seem to know where the limit is.

It's due to these multiple occurances of this extreme behaviour that he was demoted. As I've posted before the council thought that demoting would be 'less' than kicking him from the guild.
These kinds of decisions are very very tough in normal circumstances. To be honest, with Sasch it's 100 times harder as everybody on the council likes him a lot and knows these occurances aren't the 'real' Sasch.

Out of all the difficult issues we've had to deal with as the council, I think this one has been the most harrowing and the most upsetting for all the people involved.

Personally, I hope we can all get past this and get on with enjoying the game we've chosen to play.
Sasch, I still think that when you're not acting in this way you are one of the nicest people in the game and I'll always be willing to hunt with you - I just hope you can learn to control your anger at these times - it's best all round

I hope this clears up the reasons for the decision for some of you.

Yep, Slinver can't do a lot of DPS. But he has his warlock tricks

Ok in conclusion ive been away a bit it took me around 3HRS to catch up with alot of crap!

PROPOSAL:
#1. Sasch & Morri : Make up, hugg , say sorry and mean it and come back!(if your not back)

#2:Stop this posting madness and BE HAPPY TBC IS HERE !(though i dont have it yet)

I hope you can all rest your soul with this

Mini

Slinver wrote:

He also was very abusive in his manner to many people both in private whispers and in public guild chat. If this was the first time he would have been warned, but it wasn't. It was the latest in several occurances and he had been warned by council members at least twice. He did not heed those warnings, and even now claims they weren't warnings.

I cant agree with you Slin of being abusive in private whispers but i agree that i could have said what i said in guild chat in another way but you do not remember that i where not the only one in guild chat and i am not the only one that where provokativ, and the warnings, next time PLEASE tell the next clown to be warned, tell him something like "this is a warning".

This post i am about to write is mabye only for the council only, but here i go.

I have been punished, some of those who have been offended by my posts have gotten there revenge, why you ask?, after i got the ingame mail from Saurz that said i got demoted and after i had my talk with Slin i could no get any sleep, i tried, i felt so disapointed, sad, angry and totaly messed up, it took me 34h before i could get any sleep, many of you who read this might think it's bullshit, no it's not, i will not try to prove it to you but you have to trust me.

I have also been treated badly by guildies but i have taken it like a adult and moved on, i will not try to prove that either, you just have to trust me.


Edit: removed some text

Quote::

i could no get any sleep, i tried, i felt so disapointed, sad, angry and totaly messed up, it took me 34h before i could get any sleep, many of you who read this might think it's bullshit, no it's not, i will not try to prove it to you but you have to trust me.

I believe you
This is pretty much what I was saying to you before, that I understood why you feel so emotional about all this.
I've been the same, and felt the same way with the original CotH/CLOWN arguments.

Since then I've realised just how daft that is. This is a game, it's meant to be fun entertainment.
Getting this worked up over a game is just not worth it at all. Life's too short.

I think I did say to you in one of our chats that I've done my best to just let go of all that and enjoy the game more than worrying about who is in what guild, what may happen in the future etc. Much more fun to just play with friends
I think people may have noticed my 'more relaxed' attitude in my posts... especially the council where I was sometimes very stressed over issues.

All this stress over a game just isn't worth it. I hope you can relax, enjoy BC and have fun Sasch